Return to Article: New data on federal-private compensation gap rekindles debate
-
85495
Instead of bashing each other lets get most of our industrial base back that we let the croonies basterdize over the past 30 years for greed. This out sourcing has help noone but stock holders. Wake up America where are the kids going to work?? And by the way if things dont turn around I wouldnt waste my time/money on a college degree unless we start bringing our economic base back and all the spin off industry that provides. You dont need a masters degree to manage a Mickey D since our echelon seems to think a service industry will keep us afloat in the future world market. But what would you expect for people who think with their pockets and not thier hearts (Todays professional Politicians)Follow the money!!!
-
61742
Let me say, I got an MBA while working as a GS-12. The rewards? Zero, Zip, Bupkus. In fact, there was a great deal of resentment from management. So, I thought the degree should lead to opportunities with other agencies. Again, not so. In fact, from this level a transition to another agency at the same or higher salary is a difficult if not impossible endeavor. It is very difficult to break into a new culture. Was the MBA worth it? You bet, personally yes, career wise, the story is still open.
-
61685
Since it comes from the Cato Institute, one would well remember that they've got a libertarian agenda. I worked on a compensation survey for... a piece of the excepted service.... Basically we found that our employees, similarly compensated to the GS, were paid just fine. Not top of the line (except in admin support and [yikes] HR), but not too badly. There were exceptions. Legal and IT were at the bottom of the pile, even after the crash of the IT boom. The high cost-of-living areas fared worse than the private sector. But looking at the whole picture, Fed employment, while not perfect, looked alright.
-
56909
While reporting just glosses over the real data, it would be interesting to see data that compared job salary to education level. For example, to start as a HUD MBA Fellow you need an MBA but start as a GS-9 and with locality pay the salary is about $50K. Yet Department of commerce says that average starting salary of someone with a Master's degree is about $60K. Why the difference? Why can't our Federal Government bring a starting salary for someone with a Master's degree closer to the $60K average? Because starting someone as a GS-11 wouldn't be fair to those who started lower years ago without the degree and who had to work their way up. Yet the government says it wants to hire more workers with advanced degrees but doesn't want to pay the freight. I'd like to see one of these presidential candidates give us some straight talk on this subject!
-
56887
To answer Eric- no an MBA doesn't automatically get you more money.. you start where you start. I started as a GS-3 with a Bachelors degree. Hard work and a willingness to change (maybe your whole job!) and learn are what get you into the GS-11 + jobs. I resent all these civilian folks telling us how we have it so great. There is no day, a boss will come in and hand you $50. to take your spouse to dinner, or a Thanksgiving turkey, or Hey! We're going to close for the day, or Hey! We're all going to lunch for 1 ½ hours today. There are intangible rewards for public and private jobs. You can't compare grapefruits to grapes. And yes, I love my job, I'm serving my country to the best of my ability.
-
56884
Eric: obtaining an M.B.A. or some other advanced degree increases your chances of getting promoted in the government. However, there is no cash-reward for getting one, at least under "normal" circumstances.
DSR
-
56834
I am a recent college graduate looking to start employment with the DLA. Though relatively unfamiliar with the federal compensation system I believe these numbers are excessively skewed. Since I am unfamiliar with the federal compensation system and I would like to know if a federal employee is rewarded when an MBA or some other form of graduate degree is obtained. Often in the private sector business people receive a $20,000-$30,000 pay increase when receiving an MBA and I am curious what the federal compensation system does to reward such achievement.
-
56686
The reality is that the Federal government does not have many burger flippers, whereas the private sector is full of them. An overall averaging of salaries is meaningless. Go look at senior executive pay and you will see how much more the private sector makes. Why do you think there is always a huge exodous from gov't to the private sector? It is not the other way around which we would expect if Cato's analysis was correct. Incidently, the highest paying, and in my opinion, lowest efficiency jobs out there are the same contracting jobs Cato is promoting as a solution.
-
56664
How much is Chris Edwards, director of tax policy at the libertarian think tank known as the Cato Institute, paid to write a blog post to recommend that federal employees receive a salary freeze? Here is a guy who doesn't even have a real job telling what other people should be paid. I am curious to see where the CATO Institutes's salaries would compare within their own studies? Perhaps the work of their institute could be outsourced to researchers in China. I'm sure they could do a bang up job for at least half the cost!
-
56647
The data can and will be skewed. I worked for the Feds for a long time. While the payscales appear low considering the amount of education and/or training OPM demands for an entry level position, most Feds have gotten around that by overclassifying their pets. For example, a "personnel director" with barely a high school education and no further training is overclassified (at my ex place of employ) and therefore makes over 80K a year - when she/he shouldn't be more than a GS-9. Of course, most of the real low level low paying, dead end government positions (such as secretary) are the only ones that have done a disappearing act in the 90's - due to "rightsizing". These former GS-5 Secretaries are now "Administrative engineer Specialists" commanding GS-12 pay. Most people that have been in the government awhile are still better off than in private industry.
-
56637
For once, I have just a few questions:
1. Why do these figures NEVER jive with the figures of Federal Civilian Workforce Statistics, The Fact Book?
Concern: Someone is wrong here and the Cato Institute seems to be the one with an agenda.
2. Why is the current administration not releasing the 2007 Fact Book?
Concern: As a matter of fact, you have to send in a request for the 2006 edition since the OPM web site no longer carries the down-loadable PDF files except in the bits and pieces stage. Seems as the freedom of information act ages, The Fact(s) are getting harder to find.
As the old adage goes: Figures lie and liars figure.
Go figure.
-
56624
When we have these debates on Public versus Private compensation, can we not proceed from a more moderate origin?
Why do we always begin the discussion using a rhetorical & irrational viewpoint?
I would expect better from Government Executive.
-
56621
I am tired of being told how good we all have it as federal employees. My mother-in-law worked for general motors for years on the assembly line. She got better pay and benefits (particularly health care benefits) that I did working in a GS management position with the federal government. Her pension is pretty substantial and between that and her health care bennies as a GM retiree, she is set for the rest of her life. Those of us under FERS with the federal govt cannot say that.
-
56620
Jack Courtney: I believe your argument should be directed towards Chris Edwards, not Max Stier. Stier is saying the same thing you are.
DSR
-
56604
From the start a federal-private comparison of average salary and benefits is statistically invalid. Federal jobs are uniquely different than most private sector jobs. We don't sell common goods and services. We administer the complex governmental laws of the land. If anything we should be compared to those in the legal profession and we certainly don't make as much as lawyers. Our benefits are good and should be an example to private sector employers to respect their employees by giving decent benefits. This should not be an argument for giving feds lower salaries to "even the score" with those who have poor benefits.
-
56595
As GS9 makes approximately $20 an hour not including benefits or locality pay, or about $160 per day. Hello, a waiter without any formal education on a so, so night makes at least $200 in tips and works fewer hours. You can double that on a good night. I know many government employees in various paygrades that are moonlighting because the money is better elsewhere. Young people coming out of college are staring in the $18-$25 per hour range with typically a very good, yet low-cost health & benefits package that even allows the addition of a partner outside of wedlock. Cato, how about doing your homework? Wages are moving up in the private sector. The government employee is falling behind!
-
56593
I am a fire fighter with the Federal Government. I have observed fire fighting costs soar as we have outsourced more and more work to contract crews. While the idea looks good (on the surface) because the government only pays contractors when they are doing work, the hourly rates include training, preparation, and so forth. In addition to that, we pay profit, L&I costs, administrative costs of the contractor, the costs of borrowed capitalization (which is at a much! higher interest rate than the Federal bond rate!!!) and so forth. The costs per crew day during the fire season are multiples of the costs of agency crews, and the contract crews are not nearly as well trained. For example, there are no contract Type 1 (hotshot) crews available. This is because hotshot crews must be extremely physically fit, highly cohesive, and very well equipped to handle the demands of their work. Statistics that look at means are notoriously useless in measuring populations of anything, unless the data are stratified in a meaningful way.
-
56590
Who or what in the world is the Cato Institute and where do they get their funding? I'll bet it is a who's who of the private sector governmnet contractors.
-
56582
It is very sad to hear these bogus arguments that clearly lack serious analysis. In my area I am undercompensated relative to the private sector by about 25%. I work overtime all the time without compensation, and lack many of the other perks of the private sector. The BEA report compares Ph.D.'s from the government with high school level or lower hourly wage employees. It is hard to believe that the BEA could put out such a poorly done report. Sounds like they should get a low mark on their "pay for performance" plans.
-
56558
The easiest solution is to resurrect Maximilien Robespierre and have him lead an angry mob to storm the Cato Institute and every corporate boardroom in America and drag those dirt bags to the public square! Seriously folks, why are the corporatists allowed to have their pro-contracting views published as "news" or "studies" when there is now ZERO doubt that contracting out = corporate welfare and misery for the American middle class? Between the no-bid contracts (i.e., socialist-style government giveaway to hypocritical coporations and libertarian "think" tanks that rant against government handouts) and the thinly-veiled attempt to ensure that no American worker is left with health care or retirement income, why are we wasting our time considering their fake research and baseless arguments?
-
56541
We simply out-sourced many of the lower paying jobs to the private sector. The remaining Government jobs on the average are better paid but also require more education/training. My agency does most of the engineering and we contract out the construction in large sums. Is it fair to compare Government engineers' pay with private construction labor's?
-
56537
Averages do not provide an accurate picture of anything. For every overpaid government clerk, you will also find a similar government position where the individual's income qualifies for welfare because of differences in the cost of living in certain geographic areas.
Some governmental jobs are overpaid, compared to similar work in the private sector. Others are significantly underpaid.
The true subject with room for discussion is specific positions.
-
56531
Dear Mr. Max Stier,
Your efforts to generalize what the federal employee makes as a salary for their efforts is like saying, "all think tanks are the same, they sit around all day and think great thoughts that have no connection with reality or benefit our country in any way."
I must confess that I do not know where you received your information, how many people have you used in your database, where they physically worked, what their positions were, what the blend of Blue Collar/ White Collar/ Executives/ "others" labor categories you used in your database? Did you consider the State National Guard employees or the Federal corporations? The Guards, you know, are partially paid by the Federal Government and compete for jobs on a federal level.
What analytical methodology and formulation did you use to determine the variables and known salary incomes of each payment sector of the federal employee workforce? How many of the different salary and compensation formats did you use? Did you use them all? Where did you come up with the salaries for the industrial sector? Did you evaluate California salaries to salaries in Alabama? Did you use any federal employees in Iraq, London, Guam, Alaska or Puerto Rico? If you used averages in all the different career fields, how many different career fields did you use to create an average for that career field? Is the result really valid for that career field (Federal Attorney vs. an attorney practicing in Boston, New York or San Francisco)? Did you evaluate the CEO compensation to the Federal SES compensation?
You sir, have too many unknown factors to take you statement seriously, your statement is equal to President Bush telling us that there are weapons of mass destruction in Canada aimed at us.
-
56526
Federal employees share at least one thing in common with their counterparts in private industry. The Cato Institute would like to outsource ALL American workers. The Cato policy handbook (2006) supports open borders where companies are allowed to bring in cheap foreign labor without any restrictions. This includes importing skilled workers like engineers too. So beware Joe Taxpayer as they'll be coming to outsource you next.
-
56522
Fred Mills: your statement is well taken, but I believe it misses the point somewhat. You appear to presume that Chris Edwards is actually SERIOUSLY trying to use this data to justify outsourcing more jobs. You could be right, but deep down I'm thinking this bean-counter probably knows the truth.
My working-hypothesis is that Chris Edwards just wants the government to outsource more jobs & he could care less about whether this is good or bad for the government. There is a difference between that & TRULY believing these flimsy arguments actually hold water.
In my mind, I believe that the impetus for this "study" by the Cato Institute (although it's a bit of a stretch to actually recognize it as an actual study) is blatantly transparent. A-76 / arbitrary outsourcing has got an awful lot of bad press lately. In between the Walter Reed fiasco, Blackwater, Halliburton, etc. there just isn't a lot of good news these days for the die-hard backers of A-76. This is so much the case that congress is tinkering with the idea of suspending A-76 competitions for 1yr in DoD to prevent further chaos / confusion / fleecing of the government.
Along comes the Cato Institute to the rescue. Cato, like the Jedi Master of outsourcing, says "We think outsourcing is good. We need MORE outsourcing!" What follows is a hushed awe of the Neocons as they use this trenchant statement to re-energize the A-76 "base" that has been beat down the past 8yrs by that silly thing called reality.
There you have it; the truth so far as I can observe it.
DSR
-
56511
Actually, the folks doing economic analysis at BEA cannot be outsourced since they are coded as inherently governmental on the 2007 commercial and inherently governmental inventory.
-
56509
The problem is simple really. We just don't have enough WG-01 fry cooks working for the government.
-
56506
Dear Chris Edwards: You may want to re-consider your remarks. Comparing an "average" federal civil servant to the private sector is easy, but if you were to look closer, we have scientists, doctors, lawyers, and numerous folks that are leading major national and international programs for this great country. Try comparing the salaries of doctors, lawyers and scientists with the private sector. A GS-15 makes about $125,000.00 a year. FERS employees has to pay into their own retirement system, along with TSP if they desire to have even a small amount of money within retirement. They end up with about 40% of their salary as take home pay. I'm sure the Cato Institute is a nice place to work, but you may want to make sure you walk the walk way before you talk the talk. Saying you know something about federal civil service is in no way even close to what is reality. You also did not account for the fact that many of these federal civil servants work overtime as managers, but receive zero compensation, whereas a civilian would never do such a thing. This is because we serve our country and the tax payers, whereas civilains work and expect to be compensated for 100% of their effort. To state that you suggest there be a salary freeze, when you really do not understand what you are talking about brings discredit upon you and your organization. Your statement was a premature and an uneducated off the cuff remark.
-
56502
Unless the Washington D.C. area is segregated and analyzed separately, this has purported gap has no meaning for the country as a whole. I worked with GS civilians in the DC area as a military reservist and as a GS-11 with the USFS I had more responsibility than a GS-14 in the DC area.
-
56501
Enjoyed reading the article. As with anything there is and will always be two sides to the issue(s). Further still, I would submit that any study can and will reflect the objective that is desired and unless a true analysis of the data sample is conducted the results are often times misleading.
A true case is that if you compared many Government salaries in my career field with my non-Government counterpart you would certainly find that the pay scale is tipped in the opposite direction in favor of the non-Government enployee (by a wide margin). Compounding the situation, the manpower has been streamlined in our organization which means many folks are performing more than their original function. No one pays the additional hours that many folks now put in on their own because they care about the quality of the product they are responsible for.
The fact that this occurs does not hamper the majority of the folks I work/serve with. Most individuals do all they can to view the money spent and the service we perform as tax payer money and are highly efficient. This is not to say that there are not some traditional "loafers"....every organization has these. Sadly, they seem to always be in the forefront for everyone to observe. The Federal Government is implementing a "Pay for Performance" system that is designed to address this. I have my reservations on this new system yet look forward to the opportunity for this to address non performance through pay as long as it rewards those that do honestly perform with pay. Bottomline, I agree there are some highly overpaid folks in the Government, and there are just as many underpaid. Until a job by job comparison is made (and by region) there will continually be this broad interpretation and dispute of data collected.
-
56499
With that kind of a salary I wonder where all these "Average" people are on that paticular ladder.
I don't even make near the lowest on the list. IF these are the GS-11s and up I can understand, but to compare a GS-5 (or even put me in that pool of "averages" you are nuts. I'm just making it on a single income and paying for a home as well (and it isn't new it's abour 20 yrs old).
-
56494
I want to be part of the Federal Average. Even with all of my Federal Benefits, I don't beleive they work out to over $30,000/year. Not sure how they got those statistics, but I really question them.
-
56492
Landefield, BEA Driector, has served various conservative administrations that all despise Federal employees, so it's not news that the BEA is spewing more disinformation about us.
And the criticisms are right on. A serious analysis - and not a political hack job - would disaggregate the data and consider occupation, education, years in position, locale and other variables. That could be the basis for a discussion. It may be that Federal employee benefits for blue and pink collar jobs are more generous than the privaye sector. Does that mean that everyone should go without health care and mediocre retirement plans? (Yes, FERS sucks, but is's better than nothing which the majority of workers get.)
But the current data is nothing but a blunt hammer obviously intended to induce more animosity toward Federal employees and feed the blogs of right-wing 'think' tanks (i.e., Cato Inst.) and the columns and broadcasts of other neanderthal 'opinion' makers. This administration has a disdain for knowledge in all forms. They - and their defenders - are intellectually and morally bankrupt!
-
56491
This is very interesting research but the truth is that Private sector employees make more money than we do. If you go to the large companies a Senior Clerical employee make $56,000 plus benefits which is $70000 as compared to a GS-07 who makes $40000 with benefits $50000. I think they are reversing the figures ie OPM for budget reasons. All I can say is that if I was a GS-11 which I should be I would be making the right salary for, but all we have are GS-07 grades. Yes where are the GS-11/12 positions ????????
-
56488
Well, the policy of a pay freeze would propel many I know into the private sector, and since most of us under FERS do not have a vested interest in hanging out 30+ years if we are under 40 we won't. Also, many jobs that have been contracted out are costing a lot more than it would to hire a Government employee. The Average wage where I work is a GS-4 so it would be difficult to get anyone here to stay on if pay freezes were indeed the rule. I left the private sector to come here 2.5 years ago, and have turned down many better paying jobs to do something for my civic duty, not including my 10 years in the Army. It may however be tempting to go back to the private sector if the right position came along. The Cato folks have a real distaste for Government and taxes, and services and think everything should be free. Cato originally was a fairly reputable libertarian group, but has sunk so far into the embrace of radical extremist neocons that now they are just shills. They have very little in the way of actual street cred left. Maybe, they should come join the Government and put some of their ideas to work.
-
56485
Everything considered, this is about what we have all come to expect from this administration and its sympathizers (such as the Cato Institute). If there is any possible way to twist the facts to even remotely favor their skewed vision, they will take it, no matter how far from the real truth it might be. All the lowest ranks of the General Schedule (GS1 through GS4) no longer exist, as they have been replaced completely by contractors. A considerable number of GS5 through GS8 employees have been replaced. With the removal of the lower paid ranks from the government's job inventory and inclusion in the civilian (non-government) job inventory, is it any wonder that the average salary for government employees went up and the average salary for civilian (non-government) employees went down? Oddly, all those benefits are only of use to a few personnel who actually NEED them. Those who don't need them (most of the government employees) can't see any increase in their take-home pay due to the benefits (and gentlemen and ladies, if you think those 'benefits' are free, think again).
-
56482
Bureau of Economis Analysis, Dept. of Commerce. Dear people of this agency, YOU TO CAN BE OUTSOURCED.
Your jobs are just as vunerable. Do you think that you are special becuase you think you are, Think Tank, think again.
If I worked on Wall Street at the end of the year I could be given a bonus. Here at the VA, I can expect a cost of living adjustment below the annual rate of inflation.
If I was a bureaucrat or upper managemnt in the federal system that reduced jobs and screwed up service I could get a bonus at the end of the year.
Not happening at my level. I am not even considered for a one time award. But manegers have been given this on the spot award for not hiring replacements in a timely fashion, thereby holding down the FTE's in their depts.
Remember, India and Pakistan are not that far away by the internet.
See you on the unemployment lines.
-
56479
If you are going to make a realistic comparison, then do so with discrete functional areas and grade levels. Otherwise, you are reporting erroneous statistical data this is worthless, other than to create a false illusion about government jobs.
-
56474
Why stop at a country wide apples and oranges comparison. Why not compare federal workers salaries to average salaries world wide, true the undeveloped and developing countries may tend to skew the average down a bit but hey the legitimacy of the is comparison is not really at issue for the Cato Institute is it?
-
56472
Of course we in the Federal workforce have got it much better on average than those in private sector. The continuing hypocrisy of Federal unions and the other "usual suspects" on this issue is blatant. To say it isn't so and use transparently specious reasoning only makes all of us look greedy and further stimulates public anger and envy. The annual clownfest of the recommendations of the Federal Salary Council calling for double digit pay increases on the basis of the flawed FEPCA methodology only further makes things worse. Neither Clinton or Bush II have ever taken such recomnendations seriously, and for good reason. Why do you think that for the vast majority of announced job vacancies agencies are swamped with well qualified applicants? (And we worry about a so-called retirement tsunami!) The public knows our pay and (increasingly) benefits are very generous and reacts accordingly. Enough already with the silly smokescreen arguments that seek to explain away the obvious.
-
56471
the Bureau of Economic Analysis does everyone a disservice and only fuels both sides into legislation that may or may not be based on a flawed analysis. I think a better use of their time would be to focus on larger issues that impact the tax payer. Say, the cost vs bebefits of contracting out. Now there is something someone can create legislation to see how the Govt is really saving money.
-
56459
Federal Employees can turn out the lights if McCain gets elected. He will use this slanted data as grounds to contract your job out. Bush has been doing it for the last 7 years.
PROMO RIGHT: EVENTS
UPCOMING WEBINARS
NOVEMBER 18
Speed bumps for Teleworking: What are they and how to avoid them?
DECEMBER 3
Achieve Program Success: Unlock the Management Information in Your Data
DECEMBER 10
Practical Transparency: Applying Exchange Networks for Mission Results
PROMO RIGHT: DIRECTORIES
Post a Comment
To post a comment, you must provide a name and a valid e-mail address. Messages must be limited to 400 words. By using this Service you agree not to post material that is obscene, harassing, defamatory, or otherwise objectionable. Although Government Executive does not monitor comments posted to this site (and has no obligation to), it reserves the right to delete, edit, or move any material that it deems to be in violation of this rule.