Return to Article: TSP trading activity down, officials say
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47484
Hat Tip to "Tip Off" (A gentleman and a self thinker even though we disagree on EVM's and election integrity.)
Thank you
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47143
The proposal to limit us to two transactions per month will effectively knock us back into the days of the monthly valued system. For example, if I make an IFT from 100% G to 100% C and I choose to go back to 100% G a few days later I have already used my two transactions for the month and I can do nothing but sit in the G fund until the first of the next month. This is completely unacceptable. Most mutual funds count a transaction as a "round trip". A more acceptable solution would be to allow 2 "round trip" transactions per month which would give us more flexibility without throwing us back into a one transaction per month stone age system. Looking at all the data it appears the transaction costs are not very much. I personally would accept being able to make 2 "round trip" transactions (4 IFT's) instead of only one if this proposal is executed.
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47102
I call BS on the TSP board's moves....another way that the average Joe cannot be held accountable for his/her own retirement (And the TSP is the biggest of the alleged 3 legs of FERS retirement)....I have the certified letter waiting for me at the Post Office, so now I can only trade by mail?!?!?! WTF kind of insane crap is that, because I made 5 trades in all of February?!?!?!!? The TSP board needs to get over themselves, and let participants manage their funds like THE LAW SAYS THEY CAN!!
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47077
There's no free lunch. You frequently trade no transaction fee mutual funds (inside or outside retirement accounts), you'll often get clobbered with a 2% sales fee when holding for short period
. TSP is more generous than private investment accounts. The TSP has incredibly low annual expense fees compared with vanguard, fidelity. They are able to keep it cheap by keeping expenses low. -
46959
Phil, I was there with you for most of your response and totally agree, except at the electronic voting. Not to say that couldn't, wouldn't, or even won't eventually happen. But not all states use electronics, so that can't be the reason. And if we can make such systems secure enough to trust the wealth of the nation, we SHOULD be able to trust our elections to them; if the rest of the system were trustworthy itself.
No, the problems started WELL before the advent of the electronic voting machines. Our history is rife with vote-tampering scandals. Yes, our system has some major flaws that start before the voters walk into the booths; well before the primaries and the caucuses. Not all states have even contributed to the primary system this year. What has happen to our voting rights has happen because of the pride of our republic (I can not lie and say "democracy"); the two-party system.
While it is a paradigm-shift better than most, due to its enforcement of the adversarial rights against the incumbent; it is far from perfect. As you touched on, the ultimate proof lies in the Electoral College, the group of obscure appointees who actually decide our POTUS. Few are known and the process of appointment is even more ambiguous; except for the blatant influence of the two major parties. The appointees mostly come out of the primary ballots and caucuses; but then the Democrats have even stopped two states, Florida and Michigan, from contributing to the early part of the process. I.e. the two-party system has changed over the centuries since that original Philadelphia meeting. Like many older established religions, who started off as reformists for the people; they have switched to a system bent on continuity and control, more like unto the Pharisees.
What has this to do with the TSP and our fine board? Much! I THINK this system started off with good intentions; but like the Pharisees, the board now sits in control deigning to guide our futures with the benevolence of a despot.
In this age of instantaneous world-wide communications, we should have more voice in our destiny; more control over our own fates, both economically and politically. The only reason for anything else is Control; an end in and of itself for far too many.
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46834
The system has gone from bad to worse. Since this is the retirement system that we are stuck with, at least we should have the ability to trade real-time. If overhead costs are the issue, then charge a $4.00 per trade charge or something in that range. By limiting the amount of trading we can do, we won't be able to capitalize on upward market swings at the right time. If you can't buy low and sell high at the right moments, then what's the point? Call it day trading, but if we don't have more control over our own accounts, the math shows that most will not be able to live comfortably on what they will have otherwise gotten from their retirement account at retirement.
I don't want to be one of the multitudes of retirees that won't be able to make ends meet. I can do far better than the Government if given real-time control of my account. I can't stress it enough. Government interference never benefits the average citizen.
I am going to move my account balance out of the TSP fund and into one of the major online brokers 401K and set up an ongoing allotment to that account. After that, I am only going to allot just enough into the TSP to get the maximum matching funds. I would encourage EVERYONE else to do the same!
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46821
I have a suggestion: if people who actively manage their own money are such a bother then offer them an option to move their money out of the TSP. I would happily move my money to a commercial provider such as Fidelity or Magellan. Yes, I know the expenses are a bit higher at the commercials, but, unlike the TSP, they offer the ability to invest in things that are likely to do well in the coming shit-storm.
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46800
Tony, I know your not accusing me of taking credit for a sliding economy. Or of trying to take credit for a change that has a negative impact on the minds of government employees.
I got nothing to do with the economy, I am just calling it like I see it. Basing our monetary system on something other than gold is what has our lives in this mess.
Maybe if some folks at the top would stop breaking their oath of office, and start providing oversight of a out of control executive branch. If the war in Iraq is such a success then explain why we are still there.
The facts are that our elections are manipulated via electronic vote tabulation devices (that by definition can not have public oversight because electricity is invisible), broken chain of custody on ballots, manipulation of the voter rolls, and then if that isn't enough, the delegates and electoral college basically nullify our votes.
The media is going to help because they are corporate fascists, not of the public interest, and censors, produces propaganda, and fluff. And the FCC chair is a Bush appointee running things for profit instead of running things from an engineers's point of view and in the public interest.
We got NAFTA, CAFTA, GAT, PNAC, AIPAC, CFR ruining the middle class.
And your going to accuse me of taking credit?
You better wake up.
I am not worried about my image. I am worried about this unsustainable future and the worst leadership in the history of the world. About outsourcing everything that we should be doing ourselves, and about our men and women who are fighting a war for corporations to profit.
Not to mention that protesters can't even protest. And senators don't listen to us anymore.
Were done!
I'll be filling a glass with vodka now as I go walk my cat in the garden.
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46789
Please, don't take credit for a sliding economy. Besides trying to take credit for a change that has a negative impact on the minds of government employess is one that won't help your image and work ethic.
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46772
W D Jackson,
Yeah you hit the nail on the head. It's exactly their plan.
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46744
Is this the same way the Bush administration plans to allow us to manage (invest) some of our Social Security, only when and how they want us to do it????
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46741
Stockman, Fedworker, Chris, I think I just figured out why the changes and propaganda.
It's so simple, a baby could have guessed it, it's because the control of the TSP is a Bush appointee (who even tried to wear two hats.)
Think about it. Anything this administration touches is instantly corrupted and turned into a never ending nightmare. Everything they say publically is actually the opposite of the truth.
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46738
Imafed is right... Buying and selling your funds on a day to day basis is NOT day trading! Day trading is when you can buy and sell stocks at that EXACT second of the day.
No matter what you do during the day, you're only going to get to buy or sell into the 5 different TSP funds ONE time that day, and ONLY at the close of business!
It's the same thing the L funds are doing EVERY day, but you're the one making the decision of what you want to do and when you want to do it.
So why do the L funds get to rebalance every day and you get THREE trades a month? Wow, that's really fair!
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46729
Hat's off to those of you who can afford to put more than 5% into retirement. Supporting a family on a single gov income with rising health care, energy costs, and taxes, I sure can't.
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46725
I applaud the Board on this decision. This is a retirement SAVINGS & investment account designed to work for the long haul with one of lowest expense ratios of any 401k plan around. Low expenses are critical for long term investors, even more so when returns are down in a uncertain market. Day traders can take their money elsewhere.
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46722
The restrictions to the number of TSP IFTs should not be limited. As we now live in a very volitile market with no relief in site it becomes extremely important to be able to manage individual TSP funds as required. The most important point here is simple, the money invested in individual TSP accountsis the individual's money and thus the individual should have total say in how it is managed. If accounts of other participants are effected negatively then those individuals need to learn how to manage their accounts properly without taking away my rights.
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46721
How can the TSP say definitively that their rules actually worked? Did they not consider that with the market the way it is, people may actually be staying in the G or F funds to protect themselves from the volatility of the current stock market funds to preserve their capital?
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46718
TSP is successful in fixing a problem that doesn't exist while ignoring the problem which does! Typical beauracratic behavior. Declare a problem that doesn't exist. Then when it goes away they have fixed it. AFTER spending bunches of our money and restricting our freedom to protect our investment in the TSP. The real problem is due to valuing the I Fund before the international markets close (7:00 am the day following the transfer). Note that trading costs actually DECREASED from $ 4.15 per participant in 2006 to $ 3.55 per participant in 2007.Leave us alone!
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46717
Right now all TSP participants are footing the bill for these few making several trades a month. Although, I feel these very few people that are being restricted to mail trading is discrimination. I'm all for a fee placed on the trading to cover the cost of the trade and maybe even a prohibitive amount (esp over 2-4+ trades/mo). I hope the Board can find a fair solution.
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46708
OK Chris. Please explain why this is such a great idea for individuals (who it was set up for BTW), but the 5 Lifecycle Funds will still be allowed to rebalance DAILY? I prefer to rebalance my own mix of funds rather than rely on the contractor (BGC).
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46707
Chris,
IFT's that can be made only ONCE daily and that don't get recorded until COB instead of at the time of the transaction are NOT DAY TRADING. Where did you get your license?
Definition: Day trading differs slightly from other styles of trading in that positions are rarely (if ever) held overnight or when the market being traded is closed. There are several different styles of day trading, suited to different day trader personalities. The styles range from short term trading such as scalping where positions are only held for a few seconds or minutes, to longer term swing and position trading where a position may be held throughout the trading day.
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46701
WOW!! I wonder who analyzed that data? We told the frequent traders to back off... trading was down in Feb, so it MUST have worked!
3 trades a month is ridiculous! Why does it have to be montnly? As long as they made it 36 trades per year, I'd be O.K. with that. Many times during the year you wouldn't want to touch your funds, but other times... like NOW I might want to make changes!
As a matter of fact, I had most of my TSP in the G and I was redistributing some of my funds back into the indexes. I've already moved a percentage into the C, I, and S funds on one day after the market had a significant drop. So that means I'm DONE for the month?
What counts as a trade? Is that ONE trade, or is that considered THREE trades, because I used THREE different funds? If that counts as one trade, I'm not as bad with it. If it counts as three, I don't like it.
If the market has another significat drop over the next couple of weeks, I'd like to be able to put more into these funds. If what I did counts as three, that means I won't be able to.
Another thing that SUCKS is that 4 hour trading rule! Why do you have to decide 4 hours before the market closes whether you want to buy or sell something to get the day's closing prices? Other mutual fund companies give you the day's closing prices as long as you place your order before the market closes!
If you put your order in at 3:59 p.m. E.S.T., it's GOOD for THAT day. That 4 hour rule could cost you thousands of dollars and is BUNK!
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46700
Avis, If you were all that savvy in your investments, you wouldn't be putting 12% into TSP. If you put 5% in you are maxing out the agency matching. The other 7% goes into a Roth. Sure that's after tax money, but it grows tax free and you don't pay taxes on it when you withdraw it. Second. I think unlimited trades with a $25 fee per trade after the second trade is perfectly reasonable. Yes, it's our money and we should be able to do what we want with it, but those of us who do not attempt to time the market should not be penalized by the reactionary trading habits of others.
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46698
OK Chris. Please explain why this is such a great idea for individuals (who it was set up for BTW), but the 5 Lifecycle Funds will still be allowed to rebalance DAILY? I prefer to rebalance my own mix of funds rather than rely on the contractor (BGC).
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46697
Lets see, how many TSP funds are making money? last I looked that would be ZERO, at least one is not LOSING money that would be the G fund, with a track record like this, why would any one want to move from one fund to another? Some fun huh?
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46694
I would like to investment my tsp in precious metals, how can that be done?
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46691
As a licensed stock broker, I think this is great. Investors should only be changing their new allocations not balances through interfund transfers ... except into G right before retirement ... after all this is for retirement ... not day trading.
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46689
This "problem" (there is still no convincing evidence that there is a problem) could be easily solved if the Fair Valuation were settled at 7AM the following morning rather than after COB. This has been suggested to FRTIB.
"Of the 3,500 participants who received letters, however, 549 exceeded the interim three-per-month rule in February, Long said."
Mr. Long needs to read the interim rule posted 12/27/07 and the proposed rule posted 3/10/08. The interim rule specifically states there are no limits on IFT's, and it does not define "excess trading" or "frequent trading". The proposed 3-per month limit is not yet in effect, so FRTIB does not have the authority to unfairly single out a group of people to IFT's by mail for an indefinite period of time, because current TSP law allows daily IFT's by mail, fax, TSPline, and online.
Interim rule as posted in Federal Register:
PART 1601 - PARTICIPANTS' CHOICES OF TSP FUNDS 1. The authority citation for part 1601 continues to read as follows: Authority: 5 U.S.C. 8351, 8438, 8474(b)(5) and (c)(1). 2. Amend § 1601.32, by revising paragraph (b) to read as follows: § 1601.32 Timing and Posting Dates. * * * * * (b) Limit. There is no limit on the number of contribution allocation or interfund transfer requests that may be made by a participant. In order to mitigate excessive trading expenses, the Executive Director may write to any participant who engages in excessive trading and ask the participant to stop this practice. If the participant continues to engage in excessive trading, the participant may be required to request interfund transfers by mail. [FR Doc. E7 - 25007 Filed 12 - 26 - 07; 8:45 am]
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46686
Baloney! Where do these people have their heads? Transfers are down because there is nothing to trade to given the poor market.
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46680
The federal government made the employee responsible for a major portion of their retirement. The employee did not ask for this. Now look at recent market turmoil. The employee was not responsible for that, however, they are responsible for the preservation of their retirement earnings. TSP is proud that their actions has reduced the number of monthly trades. I would be interested to know the amount of money loss in market capitalization for the TSP fund. Millions of dollars of net worth have just been lost at a time when TSP is trying to limit us further! Why does counterprodutive come to mind?
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46677
So 3,500 participants frequent traders, 549 of them who are very interested in ensuring their investment makes the most for them, out of 4 MILLION, are to blame of cost issues? GIVE ME A BREAK. I trust TSP with my money but only as I can spit. I believe each contributor has a right to trade whenever they want to and not be limited. Now TSP should enact a two per month free trade policy and charge the going rate like any other broker (I've seen fees anywhere from $5-25 per trade). It is a farce to do a by mail after the 2nd one. Outside of contributing the 5% max I add another 7% of my earnings to saving in TSP. I'm seriously thinking of taking that 7% and going elsewhere. Sure the TSP is subsidized which makes the management/admin fees lower than most commercial brokerages but with these brokers I can watch my money more closely. TSP could care less about your savings and only want it to amass a fortune based on these fees. TSP, your greed is worst than any of these 549 active participant.
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46668
Come on guys stop stretching the truth. The market in February was so bad, no one wanted to trade. Your restrictions are coming at the end of my career so it doesn't really affect me. All I did was to reduce my TSP contributions to the minimum and I started an outside account that doesn't dictate how many moves I can make each month.
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46667
Yeah the trades are down, but it ain't because of the new (and questionably legal) rules, it's because folks would be stupid (or completely uninformed) to keep money in anything other than G.
The TSP maybe a voluntary program, but it's also what new employees use for retirement. The only thing these new rules are going to do is make it so that nobody is going to want to work for the government.
It's also interesting how proposed rules suddenly become actual rules. And when discussing "officials" they never name them by name. The TSP is being completely mismanaged by these "officials." At the same time all the Government Executive articles on this matter are completely biased propaganda.
Gregory Long, should have to prove the words he says, and if not held responsible personally for lying.
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46660
This is ridiculous. The TSP constantly uses selective data to support their position. I'm sure that trading probably dropped quite a bit in October after participants received 14 digit account numbers, after years of using the easily memorized SSNs.
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46656
By limiting what and how a person can manage his/her retirement fund I would think that the TSP would be assuming a liabiliity for each person's tsp. As an example a judgement was recently awarded to person's whose company limited their input as to how their 401k was managed, thus assuming responsibility/liability for how the fund does. If I recall each time a transfer was made there was a charge included each time. I can't help but question how well the tsp is being managed,or is it just turning into another gov't bureaucracy?
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46643
Yup...not so much fun playing the TSP casino when the markets are down huh?
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