Return to Article: New documents may influence Patriot Act debate
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14682
Save your breath. The Bush-worshippers are simply incapable of listening to anything you say against their god. This isn't a question of politics or parties. It's about religion. It's a cult. And the most disturbing thing is not that we have people who worship the president as a god and are unable to find fault with anything he says or does. The most disturbing thing is that the president himself is one of those people.
In wartime or peacetime, it makes no difference. You still have to obey the law!! I'm sure that sounds like a crushing burden to the Bush Cult (though it's quick to jump on any infidel who fails to do the same). But that is how things are. The law is the law. And the law says you need probable cause. The law says you can't just listen in on anyone you want without a reason. The law says you need to go to a court, even if it's three days late. The law says the president has to obey and uphold the law. The law does not grant absolute, unreviewable, unquestionable divine power to the inhabitant of the White House, no matter how much you may want it to.
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14658
"...intercepting the calls of Americans in America..." Wow, and to think that I thought the government was only intercepting calls between foreigners who came here from nations that support terrorism, and their fellow countrymen back overseas who are seeking to destroy us. Thanks for setting the record straight! Now you've taught me that in wartime, one needs to get a judge to approve a wiretap so we can intercept the calls made to and from our enemies. How educational, and how suicidal! But at least our enemies have a good sense of humor. Just look at how much they enjoy our Western values, such as freedom of speech, and especially our cartoons!
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14623
It's not about intercepting foreign calls and you know it. Your GOP spin isn't working. It's about intercepting the calls of Americans in America, regardless of where the calls are going or coming from. How much power is too much for you? When they start spying on you? And, you believe they're only spying on terrorists. I'm not so sure given this administration penchant for retaliation against those that disagree with them. They have a legal way to get the wiretaps they seek, even retroactively, so what's the excuse for not doing it? For people who claim to love democracy so much they're willing to waste hundreds of billions of dollars and kill tens of thousand of people to force it on another country, the GOP is doing its best to limit our democracy here at home.
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14482
Please show me where in the Constitution it says you need a warrant to intercept foreign phone calls. Does the Fourth Amendment apply overseas? Last time I checked, it didn't. And if you can find such a reference, let's retroactively indict FDR and J. Edgar Hoover for intercepting calls from Japanese and German diplomats to Tojo and Hitler prior to World War II. While you're at it, lock up all the troops who intercepted enemy messages by tapping into their phone lines on the battlefield, in order to gain intelligence to help our side win. I frankly could care less if someone who calls someone in Afghanistan or Iraq has their phone calls monitored, in a time of war.
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14377
You don't get a blanket warrant for everyone you want to spy on. Each case requires a separate warrant. Any time they wiretap or spy on someone without the oversight and approval of the courts (hello, checks and balance; oversight!) they are breaking the law. Considering warrants can be obtained retroactively, what is the administration trying to hide? For people who so claim to love democracy, why wouldn't they make sure the courts were in the loop? Perhaps they really don't have enough evidence to spy on these people and just circumvent the court approval to allow them to do it. Bush's "trust me, I know what I'm doing" offers small comfort considering how lacking in credibility and competence he and his entire cabal are. There's no excuse for not getting warrants, just more abuse of power from those who are trying to ram democracy down the throats of the world but who are also doing their best to put limits on it here at home.
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14324
If "thousands of warrants" were requested last year through the FISA court, what is the problem? Warrants are being sought and obtained, and nobody is breaking into anyone's property without authorization. So, once again, where's the beef?
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14226
We're not talking about secret no-knock warrants. We're talking about not bothering to get a warrant. If the administration is so sure these people are involved there shouldn't be a problem getting the secret FISA court to OK the warrant. Of the thousands of warrants requested last year, none were refused.
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14225
In a recent interview, a former interrogator talked about his experiences in Iraq interrogating those arrested as suspected terrorists. He stated that 90 percent of those he repeatedly interrogated were in no way associated with terrorists but when he sent his recommendations forward they were returned with comments like "He has to be guilty." He said this mindset was simply to make the commanders look better in the fight against terrorists. He also said that the most information he got was when he treated the suspects like humans instead of beating the crap out of them. How much intelligence gained from the abuse of prisoners has really been truthful and actionable? Jose Padilla is an American citizen - he was imprisoned for three years without being charged or given due process. It's OK when it's happening to someone else, but when it's you or someone in your family, it's a whole different ballgame. Remember what Pastor Martin Niemoeller, a Nazi victim, said:
"When they came for the Communists, I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. When they came for the Jews, I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. When they came for the trade unionists, I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. When they came for the Catholics, I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me and by that time there was no one left to speak up"
Where does the power grab of the Bush administration end? Instead of fighting terrorism, they are more interested in exploiting it through fear and hate in order to give themselves more and more power. There is no excuse for not getting warrants considering the fact that the FISA court allows for them to be obtained retroactively. If Bush is so sure these people are involved in terrorism, he should have no problem adhering to the constitution and getting warrants. But considering how often Bush and his cronies have been wrong or proven to be incompetent, with this kind of unchecked power, I say, be afraid, be very afraid.
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14184
Guess what, folks - "secret" no-knock warrants have been around for ages. Funny how nobody complained when they were used against drug dealers, money launderers, organized crime types, etc., but now all the liberals are up in arms when the government extends this law enforcement tool to other crimes under the Patriot Act. Where were you when the FBI secretly entered and bugged John Gotti's meeting place, and used the resulting tapes to convict him? How come that's okay, but to do the same to a suspected terrorist is un-American?
Regarding those held in Gitmo and elsewhere, they are enemies of this nation, and terrorists, who were captured outside of the U.S. and are therefore not eligible for the protections afforded U.S. citizens under the Constitution. There is ample precedent for military tribunals, going back to Lincoln and the Civil War, not to mention the war crimes trials following World War II.
I'll save my concern and sympathy for the victims of terrorists, not the savages who commit atrocities upon innocent men, women and children in the streets of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Finally, to compare the fate of those murdered by the Nazis under the Holocaust to the steps being taken today to protect us is too ridiculous to respond to. And regarding Chicken Little, read the book!
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14181
Liberal Whimp,
It's actually worse than you say. There are some people who have actually been proven not to be criminals, who are acknowledged by the government to be innocent, who are still being held. Apparently there's nowhere to send the innocent ones except Gitmo.
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14177
Want to know why no victims have come forward? Because the whole point of the Patriot Act is that all the abuses are done in secret! If your house is searched with a secret warrant, how do you find out about it? If businesses are forced to give up your records under a gag order, who tells you? You have your suspicions, but no one will tell you the truth. And so-called "conservatives" won't listen, even after they've screamed for victims to come forward. Because they just don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear that their golden boy, their god, their dear leader has been making government bigger and more intrusive, and using the constitution as toilet paper. They don't want to hear that the one they worship was never really a conservative in the first place. They don't want to hear that the very word lost all meaning years ago.
And I know you won't listen to this. You just aren't capable of processing information that conflicts with your preconceived notions. It's a common problem.
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14169
The Patriot Act is designed so that you won't know when your rights have been violated. When they can come into your home or office, or look at the list of books you read, and don't have to tell you that they've done so, how would you know? It's always ok when it's happening to someone else. Wait until it happens to you -- you'll be singing a different tune.
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14168
Forgot to mention -- I just saw the movie Chicken Little with my three year old daughter. Guess what? The sky was falling!!!
Happy dreams again,
Liberal whimp
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14167
From one of those whiners:
Isn't this America where we are innocent until proven guilty. You have a number folks sitting in jail who have not been proven to be terrorists and criminals and are being held, one or two American citizens, with no due process.
Let's see, the FBI issues lots and lots of letters to the point where the American Association of Librarians of all people have told them to go take a hike.
There are probably 200,000 German and six million Polish Jews who would have really appreciated someone running around screaming that the sky is falling. Tough luck right!
Signed-- a liberal whimp who lost loads of relatives in the Holocaust. Freedom has to be fought for or it will be lost. To those who like to name call about falling pieces of sky-- you know America doesn't have the best history in setting up camps and denying due process in times of fear.
But I'm just a liberal whimp what do I know--
God bless the liberal whimps who cry the sky is falling because when it does some of us won't be around to be crushed.
Happy dreams,
Liberal whimp
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14139
To all those whiners concerned about their civil liberties being taken away by the Patriot Act, I say it's time to "put up or shut up." Name the abuses of our rights that have taken place because of the Patriot Act. Where are the so-called victims of the Patriot Act? Come on, all you victims, come forward and tell us your pitiful tales of woe.
Gee, the silence is deafening! No victims have come forward because there are no victims, just terrorists and criminals who have been discovered and prosecuted because of the hard work of our law enforcement agencies, using the tools provided them under the Patriot Act. Unless you can point to some evidence to support your position, your arguments are merely academic, and bear no relation to the real world. Then again, when did facts ever stop the ranting of liberals and the ACLU? You sound like Chicken Little, with your piteous cries of "the sky is falling." And like Chicken Little, you have absolutely no credibility!
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14062
Have any of you read the article in the Burlington Free Press about the Department of Homeland Security hiring a former KGB director, General Yevgeni Primakov, to help design "internal passports?" Primakov stated that once the National Identity Card Act is implemented, "The White House will have more control over the American people than the Kremlin had over the Russian people when Stalin was alive."
But our borders will still be porous and illegals will still be getting through. However, our government will be able to track all its citizens.
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14057
Wow Chris, I thought I was the only one who saw the parallel. I told my wife that the day this government starts to issue Nuremberg laws banning anyone from serving in University positions or in the federal government or stripping judgeships based on ethnicity, we are selling the house, abandoning the land of the "free and the home of the brave" and the family is heading north-- or maybe East because after reading about America's invasion plans for our friendly northern neighbor I don't how safe North would be.
Keep on smiling. :-))
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14050
If you are willing to let your freedom be taken away, and not willing to make sacrifices to keep the freedom you have inherited from sacrifices made by Americans over the last 200 years, then you're not deserving of those freedoms.
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14044
Maybe if those college graduates uncovered an unused copy of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights they would come across something called the 4th Amendment.
They could also find some old document regarding the collapse of the Weimar Republic and the legal installation of National Socialism in Germany -- something called the Enabling Act.
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