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White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card talked with National Journal about the president's relationship with his Cabinet, the group's role in policy-making and which members frequent the Oval Office.

NJ: Does the president view his Cabinet differently in the second two years of his term?

Card: I'm not sure that that would be a dividing line. Any president considers his Cabinet in the context of the challenges he faces. The president has had to depend on his Cabinet to do its job, even if it wasn't in the area of responsibility that was on the front page of the newspaper every day. I think this Cabinet has performed remarkably well.

The second political cycle presents us with new opportunities, because the Senate changed again. And it turns out the Senate leadership changed, so relationships have to change in order to get things done. And then we have a crescendo of responsibility around Iraq and maybe North Korea, and an ongoing war against terrorism, and an economy that's struggling to stay on the plus side of the equation, and an education plan that now has to be implemented, rather than just enacted.

The Cabinet is remarkably stable. Fewer people are going through the turnstile than, I think, any other administration in my adult political experience. I think it's a testament to the president and to his Cabinet.

NJ: How would you describe President Bush's style with his Cabinet?

Card: There's no doubt in his mind, nor the mind of any Cabinet member, that he is the president [laughs]. We don't have a lot of presidential wanna-bes in the Cabinet. I think the Cabinet understands the president and his role.... [Their] role is to advise him on policy and then to implement his decisions. They also help to make sure people understand his decisions - why he makes them, and why it's important that they be implemented well. I think our Cabinet is pretty darn good at communicating.

The president knows what decisions he has to make. We've had some presidents who've wanted to make all decisions. This president wants to make the presidential decisions, recognizing that he has competent Cabinet members [who know] the philosophical direction that he's brought to the office. I think he's got a lot of trust in the Cabinet.

I started working at the White House in 1983, so I've seen a lot of presidential/Cabinet interaction. I think all presidents meet fewer times with the Cabinet than the public expects. We'd like to [meet] once every month. I think it probably averages about once every two, two-and-a-half months, three months. That's the reality of the calendar. I think he's pretty active with his Cabinet.

NJ: How does the Cabinet fit into policy-making?

Card: The president drives policy, and he should be driving the policy. [Cabinet members] are advisers. They provide an awful lot of policy input. There are an awful lot of decisions that are made by the Cabinet. Many of the tactical decisions might come from a Cabinet agency, in consultation with the White House. Regulations are the best example.

NJ: How do the White House policy councils fit in?

Card: The four policy councils are Domestic Policy, National Security, National Economic Policy, and Homeland Security, and every Cabinet member is a member of one of the four, and many are members of several. The president is the chair of each. When there are disputes - and there frequently are - if they can't be resolved by acquiescence, the president frequently has to make the call.

Any White House tends to believe that we can do whatever it is that we can do without going outside this building [chuckles], and that is so wrong. And yet, it's kind of natural, as you're running around dealing with the crisis of the moment, to think that you can do it without getting the expertise from outside the building.

NJ: Which Cabinet members can walk into the Oval Office when they want?

Card: I feel very strongly that any Cabinet member should be able to see the president if they feel they need to. If they're looking for face time, no, don't come in. I like to know, so we can schedule it, so it can happen when the president is best able to give them the time they need. I don't like them hanging around out there, just saying, "Is anybody in there right now? Oh, nobody? I'm going in!" because when-nobody-is-in-there time is also valuable time for the president.

The secretary of State has regular time with the president. The secretary of Defense has regular time to talk with the president. Other members of the Cabinet do not have regular time, but there's a cadence to their business with the president.

NJ: How do you consider Cabinet members who believe they might be able to do their jobs better if they could build closer bonds with the president?

Card: My job is to be the president's staffer, responsible for the rest of the staff. The Cabinet, after all, is part of the president's staff. I'm not in the dating game. This is not a president searching for a friend. This is the president being able to work with the people on his staff most effectively.

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